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May. 24th, 2005 @ 11:47 am Mikage, staring blankly
Alas!
syonakeleste:
Okay...then...

::he continues a bit louder::

Since the last topic has been so...productive...shall we move on to a discussion of fate? The ultimate destiny?
From:signy1
Date:May 24th, 2005 09:37 am (UTC)

Tsuzuki/Vash

(Never Forget)
*Tsuzuki, automatically* Most of it is computerized by now. The Gushoushin have been working on that project for ages, but they're finally getting to the home stretch...

*Vash, simultaneously* There's no such thing as fate. Never has been. We make our own choices and seek our own destinies...

*They stare at each other in confusion.*
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From:doomweasel
Date:May 24th, 2005 02:59 pm (UTC)

Riku

(Never Forget)
*scornfully* Destiny? What a load of bull. If there is such thing as fate - which I'm beginning to doubt - then whoever decides it should be shot.
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From:signy1
Date:May 24th, 2005 09:30 pm (UTC)

Tsuzuki

(Never Forget)
*Snorts* If anyone gets to shoot the guy who determines fate, Riku, it is going to be me. He's a truly disgusting old pervert who's been trying to get me in bed, by force if necessary, for freakin' decades.

Fate exists, people. *Indicates Hisoka, himself, and Tatsumi.* We're part of the machine that keeps it going. People are born on schedule, they live the lives they've earned, and they die. On schedule. That's the plain fact of the matter.
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From:amethyst_hunter
Date:May 24th, 2005 11:02 pm (UTC)

Muraki

(Never Forget)
*looks vaguely amused by the new topic, and the responses generated thus far*
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From:doomweasel
Date:May 25th, 2005 12:39 pm (UTC)

Riku

(Never Forget)
So you're telling me, Tsuzuki, that free will is absolutely pointless? That all our dreams, our hopes, everything that keeps us going is a lie?

What the hell? Why would they bother keeping up this.... this illusion of freedom? It doesn't make any sense.
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From:signy1
Date:May 25th, 2005 02:15 pm (UTC)

Tsuzuki

(Never Forget)
*Snarks* Well, that's bureaucracy for you. And there's plenty of free will- just inside the strictures. It's like... it's like this. Say you're shoved into an unfamiliar kitchen at six in the morning. No cookbooks, only the ingredients that happen to be in your fridge when you get there- and some people's refrigerators are nearly empty, some are really full- and you're going to be dragged out of the kitchen at noon, or maybe sooner. The same guy who stocked your fridge has determined when you'll leave, and he won't tell you anything.

So, what do you do? Are you going to make a cake, or are you just going to burn some toast? That's where your free will comes in. You can't choose the kitchen- that's fate's job. You can't even choose whether or not the food will come out right. You can only choose whether or not to try cooking anything at all.

*He runs out of words all at once, mutters,*

And now I'm hungry.
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From:doomweasel
Date:May 25th, 2005 02:54 pm (UTC)

Riku

(Never Forget)
*slightly amused by Tsuzuki's analogy, but still upset*

So if you're dealt a crappy hand in life - if you don't get a lot of food in the fridge, I guess you'd say - then it's just tough luck? Too bad for you?

What about the people who, given the chance, could do something really great, but they DON'T get the chance? Then all their skills, all their potential would go to waste. *bitterly* And they would struggle with the crappy tools given to them while they watch others who don't deserve what life's given them breeze by.
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From:signy1
Date:May 25th, 2005 04:37 pm (UTC)

Tsuzuki

(Never Forget)
*Also bitter* Yeah. You're right. It's not fair. There's nothing fair about it. Just- sometimes good people get shafted. And I hate that as much as you do.
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From:doomweasel
Date:May 25th, 2005 06:44 pm (UTC)

Riku

(Never Forget)
*Slowly becomeing absorbed in his own thoughts, he makes a neutral sound at Tsuzuki's comments.*
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From:eredien
Date:May 25th, 2005 07:46 pm (UTC)

Hatori, to Akito

(Never Forget)
I am sorry, Akito-sama, but changing my diagnosis for your benefit would not be to your benefit. Quite the opposite, in fact. Please come over to a chair and rest.
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From:lignota
Date:May 26th, 2005 04:42 am (UTC)

Kenshin

(Never Forget)
*confused, mutters to self* "Computerized"? . . . "Fridge"?

*thoughtfully* Priests and scholars may say that our circumstances are determined by fate or karma, or that the actions of our past lives affect this life. This one does not know. But to say that everything is determined must never be used as an excuse not to choose and to act.

Our actions in this life clearly make a difference to others. If three young women had not chosen as they did, and if this one's Master(*) had not acted, this one would have died as a child.

*Soujirou's attention is caught by that; he looks up suddenly, seeming almost startled for a moment before resuming his usual smile.*

Even if it were fate to die tomorrow, this one would not go back from the battle against Shishio!

*Soujirou continues to smile.*

(*)Master = shishou: in the sense of "martial arts instructor" and not "liege lord" or "boss"
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From:doomweasel
Date:May 26th, 2005 02:31 pm (UTC)

Riku

(Never Forget)
But what if you don't want what fate has planned for you, Kenshin? What if you want something else - something greater? What then?
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From:amethyst_hunter
Date:May 26th, 2005 08:51 pm (UTC)

Muraki

(Never Forget)
*to Riku* Then you do whatever it takes to achieve your goals. With power, you can accomplish anything. *smiles, eyes glittering with an unreadable intensity*
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From:doomweasel
Date:May 27th, 2005 02:25 pm (UTC)

Riku

(Never Forget)
*looks uncomfortable about agreeing with Muraki, yet can't help but see some reason behind what he says*
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From:signy1
Date:May 27th, 2005 09:40 pm (UTC)

Vash

(Never Forget)
I wouldn't say 'with power.' I'd say 'with determination.' Power isn't the only variable that determines our futures. I'm not sure it's even on the top ten.
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From:doomweasel
Date:May 28th, 2005 10:57 am (UTC)

Riku

(Never Forget)
But no matter how determined you are, if you aren't strong enough to carry through with that determination it doesn't do you any good.
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From:signy1
Date:May 28th, 2005 12:19 pm (UTC)

Vash

(Never Forget)
Oh, I don't know about that. I knew a kid once, just a mixed-up little orphan who managed to defeat a whole gang of thieves and fix an out-of-control sand steamer just before it hurtled over a cliff. And a woman who managed to save the lives of an entire world minutes before... someone with far greater powers could destroy them. It's not always about brute strength.

Muscles and steel aren't the only determinants in the world...
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From:amethyst_hunter
Date:May 28th, 2005 10:07 pm (UTC)

Muraki

(Never Forget)
Indeed, there are many kinds of power... *smiles at Vash. To a more observant person, his smile might be discerned as having a somewhat disturbing quality to it*
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From:signy1
Date:May 29th, 2005 07:13 am (UTC)

Vash

(Never Forget)
*Grins right back. Muraki does not phase him in the least; he's been smiled at by experts, and Muraki is just not in their league.*

What sort of destiny are you trying to create, then? I'm into world peace; what's your driving force?
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From:amethyst_hunter
Date:May 29th, 2005 09:43 pm (UTC)
(Never Forget)
World peace? *wears an expression of bemused indifference* How...nice.

I prefer something on a more personalized level, which is why I work in medicine. Part medicine and part science, actually.
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From:signy1
Date:May 30th, 2005 07:48 am (UTC)

Tsuzuki

(Never Forget)
*Under his breath* And part black magic...
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From:lignota
Date:May 30th, 2005 11:30 am (UTC)

Soujirou

(Never Forget)
*half to himself, looking at Kenshin and then at Vash*

So maybe that's why . . . because someone saved you back then . . .
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From:grimmerlove
Date:May 30th, 2005 02:49 pm (UTC)

Tenma

(Never Forget)
Fate... wouldn't it be nice if it didn't ruin people's lives...? *laughs sadly*
I've seen too much of that. I'm sick of people not getting what they deserve.
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From:doomweasel
Date:May 30th, 2005 03:54 pm (UTC)

Riku

(Never Forget)
That's why fate seems so... random - like no one's actually controlling it. It gives no regard to people's feelings. It's completely heartless.

*Riku blinks when he realizes what he just said and smiles grimly at a private joke.*
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From:signy1
Date:May 30th, 2005 09:20 pm (UTC)

Tsuzuki

(Never Forget)
Someone is controlling it, though. Trust me on this one. I doubt he's truly running things by random chance- he's not that stupid. Heartless...? Maybe. *Shrugs*
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From:amethyst_hunter
Date:May 30th, 2005 09:39 pm (UTC)

Muraki

(Never Forget)
*notices Tsuzuki mumbling to himself and has a pretty good idea of what it is he's saying*

*smirks and winks knowingly at Tsu*
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From:gaudior
Date:May 31st, 2005 05:52 pm (UTC)

Hisoka

(Never Forget)
*looking disturbed*

But Lord Enma doesn't have any say over why we do what we do. Even if he is manipulating the circumstances.

There wouldn't be any point, otherwise.



[OOC-- Signy, am I getting your view of their theology right?]
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From:gaudior
Date:May 31st, 2005 05:53 pm (UTC)

Akito

(Never Forget)
*glares at Hatori, but sits quietly, getting his breath back.*
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From:eredien
Date:May 31st, 2005 06:46 pm (UTC)

Hatori to Hisoka

(Never Forget)
Who is Lord Enma, Kurosaki-san?
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